Curse

Desert Rose · Feb 08, 2010, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

The builds don't have to be comparable to show the point, primary assassins have their place and are in no way threathened or outclassed by R/A's.

The main reason for the nerf is not if R/A are able to outperform A/X but that R/As are too effective compared to the abilites a player must have to use it properly.
You use expertise to be able to spam attack skills of your secondary profession that would be too expensive for the primary profession. In the end you HAVE to spam your attack skills because otherwise it wouldn't make sense to use ranger as the primary profession in the first place. Builds that require you to spam your skills instead of thoughtfully use them can never be good for the game.
While I don't support OP suggestion I have to admit that I can only come up with a weak argument against it: Removing possibilities how a player can utilizes his character is bad.

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Melee rangers have played their part since the early days, and have seen complaints similar to yours, but never did they outperform the melee primaries.

Well, you're forgetting that many melee ranger build cannot compete against the real melee professions because often key skills from those melee ranger (team) builds got nerfed.

Amy Awien · Feb 08, 2010, 08:43 PM // 20:43

This attack chain can not be repeated endlessly and if you could attack continuously, a primary assassin is as good at it as the ranger (sins do get more damage from their daggers then rangers). By the nature of their primary attribute, sins will have energy-management equal to a ranger when attacking (and hitting), more damage per hit and actually more energy with appropriate skills.

Specific skills were nerfed/downtuned because they were simply to strong, yes. It has been argued that this would also be the case with this build - and to be honest, it's the sin-skills that are obscenely good.

Reverend Dr · Feb 08, 2010, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

This attack chain can not be repeated endlessly and if you could attack continuously, a primary assassin is as good at it as the ranger (sins do get more damage from their daggers then rangers). By the nature of their primary attribute, sins will have energy-management equal to a ranger when attacking (and hitting), more damage per hit and actually more energy with appropriate skills.

This is 100% incorrect. Points put into expertise will yield better energy results than points put into critical strikes.

Furthermore Ranger primaries will have an extra 30 armor against elemental damage sins will not and easy access to expertise based defenses that work well in 8v8 while Sin critical strike based defenses are not worth a slot in 8v8.

Bobby2 · Feb 08, 2010, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Removing expertise would make rangers impossible, 3 pips is insufficient to even feed 5 E skills, let alone the 10 and 15 E that are usually present in most builds. Removing expertise only from melee attacks may not hurt bow rangers, but it woul invalidate melee rangers, if you feel 4 pips + critical strikes are insufficient for assassins then how insufficient would 3 pips + nothing be?

Shattering Assault at 4 energy....... tends to make 3 pips more than sufficient.

Also, explain what's bad about nerfing melee rangers to oblivion

33% IAS + 75% block is (still) ridiculously strong for a melee character

Sharkinu · Feb 08, 2010, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

33% IAS + 75% block is (still) ridiculously strong for a melee character

For 11 sec every 45sec?
That skill already got nerfed 2 weeks ago.

maxxfury · Feb 08, 2010, 10:52 PM // 22:52

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to be honest, it's the sin-skills that are obscenely good.

The 1/2 activation attack skills are the major problem..

The Drunkard · Feb 09, 2010, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Well, then don't call people baed for having their own opinions. Anyway, no need to nurf expertise because of some less brilliant build. If it's brainless yet difficult to counter that is because of the 'unblockable' that's on the sin skills more then because of expertise.

No, it's not. Try activation speeds and IAS. SA sins before the dagger update used lightning to rack up a lot of unblockable dps, now they don't need to use an IAS any more and can just spam until the monks run out of energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

(sins do get more damage from their daggers then rangers).

The extra damage comes from runes...and 3 extra points of damage isn't enough to say rangers are weaker than sins.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

By the nature of their primary attribute, sins will have energy-management equal to a ranger when hitting,

Fixed that for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

and actually more energy with appropriate skills.

You just said that sins need aditional skills to get more energy.

Thank you Captain Obvious, now tell me how many sins in pvp (GvG/Ha) use critical eye over other skills (ie coward!, dash, etc.)? From observing matches, they seldom use crit eye.

Have you even played as a R/A or are you just theorycrafting?

Del · Feb 09, 2010, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Have you even played as a R/A or are you just theorycrafting?

obviously just theorycrafting. (and badly)

Amy Awien · Feb 09, 2010, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

Please, please tell me you're not that dense.

Did I did not start that quoted section with "Removing expertise would ..."?

Without expertise aplying to it, Shattering Assault would not be 4 E and 3 pips would be insufficient. Are you that stupid? What has this forum come to if even the baed trolls don't know how to read anymore?

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Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Fixed that for you.

There already was 'and hitting' in there, wasn't there. Another troubled reader or just looking for something to bitch about?

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now tell me how many sins in pvp (GvG/Ha) use critical eye over other skills.

They obviously don't need it and from this we may conclude that they're not that starved for energy.

I don't see many R/A's in GvG btw.

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Have you even played as a R/A or are you just theorycrafting?

For some reason, it didn't stick yo my bar.

Desert Rose · Feb 09, 2010, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

For some reason, it didn't stick yo my bar.

Then you really should use your time to try out the shatter combo on a sin and then on a ranger insteat of posting here; if you don't inform yourself you cannot contribute to the discussion and are nothing more but a troll.

Morphy · Feb 09, 2010, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Alright Amy Awien, to shut you up, here are the test results:

I ran a Ranger using Zealous Daggers with the standard R/A build which can be found on PvXwiki. I spammed every skill literally on recharge, using Shattering Assault as much as possible (as it costs the most). I could go on for 75 seconds before I reached zero Energy, of course reaching a point where I could still go on using skills, though less spammy.

Then I ran an Assassin with a similar set-up, replacing Lightning Reflexes with Critical Eye and obaby you're not going to like what you hear. I could only go on for roughly 25 (!) seconds before reaching a point similar to that for the Ranger, where I could still use most of my bar but not on recharge anymore.

Just for the record, Assassins actually need to hit their opponents to get most of their energy, Rangers just for the 1 energy from Expertise. In reality, Assassins will perform even worse. Other than that, 75 seconds of energy is roughly equal to having enough Energy for the entire battle. 25 seconds of energy won't make you last in a longer battle or even a normal one.

Seriously, enough of the theorycrafting. I have empirical evidence showing you're wrong. The current Ranger build far outclasses the Assassin build and by "far outclassing it" I mean "curbstomp and teabag it". Far superior energy management, +30 armor against Elemental Damage and Lightning Reflexes are the upsides to the Assassin build, which doesn't have any upsides to compensate.

Since neither build should even exist, removing the Energy bonus for secondairy skills is a fair enough nerf for this particular build. Since only spambuilds such as this one and maybe some kind of R/D with 5 attack skills or something (such as the old Escape Scythe) are actually affected by this nerf, it's perfectly fair.

Tenebrae · Feb 09, 2010, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Still with this BS ?

Asking for an ENTIRE ATT LINE NERF because of 1 build ( yeah or whatever ) is stupid. Hey , touchers still exist ! lets nerf BLOOD MAGIC ¿?¿?¿?¿?¿?¿? . No , just no . You just cant nerf something that affects 100 things just because of 1 thing , its nonsense and never gonna happen unless Anet ppl smokes too much weed and drink a hell lot of booze.

Seriously , its the same river of QQ when touchers came out and you see them nerfed ? no , so get over it and move on.

Morphy · Feb 09, 2010, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Still with this BS ?

Asking for an ENTIRE ATT LINE NERF because of 1 build ( yeah or whatever ) is stupid. Hey , touchers still exist ! lets nerf BLOOD MAGIC ¿?¿?¿?¿?¿?¿? . No , just no . You just cant nerf something that affects 100 things just because of 1 thing , its nonsense and never gonna happen unless Anet ppl smokes too much weed and drink a hell lot of booze.

Seriously , its the same river of QQ when touchers came out and you see them nerfed ? no , so get over it and move on.

Uhm, Touchers shouldn't actually exist. No-one complains about them because there are so much better builds out there, but they're still gimmicky as hell.

If you would nerf Vampiric Touch and Vampiric Bite to a level that they wouldn't be useful anymore, I don't think anyone would care. You see, these skills only lead to gimmicky "spam-me-on-recharge" builds.

It's the same for Expertise affecting attack skills from other professions. It only really hits the excess of evil, the most gimmicky of builds. Builds that no-one would miss except for the PvE players that somehow miss this change shouldn't apply to them (=PvE).

Amy Awien · Feb 09, 2010, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Fine, lets go empirical
Well, I made a little test myself, with this R/A and some random assassin build, using the haphzard collection of assasin skill I have available atm - and without PvE skills . The Sin build never ran out of energy (kept a full bar actually) and easily managed around 100 dps. The ranger did run out of energy (I admittedly did not have zealous daggers) after a while and managed like 50-60dps

I don't see R/A outclassing A/x yet, I have the empirical evidence to show you're mistaken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

You're the stupid little twit

Right, I see you can't admit a mistake.

Morphy · Feb 09, 2010, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Fine, lets go empirical
Well, I made a little test myself, with this R/A and some random assassin build, using the haphzard collection of assasin skill I have available atm - and without PvE skills . The Sin build never ran out of energy (kept a full bar actually) and easily managed around 100 dps. The ranger did run out of energy (I admittedly did not have zealous daggers) after a while and managed like 50-60dps

I don't see R/A outclassing A/x yet, I have the empirical evidence to show you're mistaken.

Right, I see you can't admit a mistake.

What build, exactly?

MagmaRed · Feb 09, 2010, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Fine, lets go empirical
Well, I made a little test myself, with this R/A and some random assassin build, using the haphzard collection of assasin skill I have available atm - and without PvE skills . The Sin build never ran out of energy (kept a full bar actually) and easily managed around 100 dps. The ranger did run out of energy (I admittedly did not have zealous daggers) after a while and managed like 50-60dps

I don't see R/A outclassing A/x yet, I have the empirical evidence to show you're mistaken.

Right, I see you can't admit a mistake.

Although I'm not arguing that R/A is good, or bad, your 'test' is flawed. And although a R/A build may be VERY different from an A/x build, using the same build for both is only effective if the build is designed for them specifically. I'd say run your test using the PvX R/A build and do it again with an A/x build designed for a similar use (RA for example). But read what I bolded, and see if that makes you proud of your proof.

Reverend Dr · Feb 09, 2010, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

this R/A and some random assassin build, using the haphzard collection of assasin skill I have available atm

Why would you use random skills? It sure isn't hard to run out of energy when all of your skills have 12-15 second recharges, it sure is easy to run out of energy when your attack skills are on 1-4 second recharges.

And that is infact the issue, that expertise is always better for spamming skills, skills that derive their total power from frequency of use rather than individual effects. If you are bringing skills that cannot be spammed as evidence into an issue about spamming skills, I really don't know how to begin to tell you that it isn't relevant.

Even then there have been many reasons listed why R/A's are superior to A/x. The only one you have attempted to address is the energy issue. Now you haven't, even in your own little theoryworld, shown that A/X has better energy management than R/A, just that it has enough to get by. That has sure convinced me that A/X is superior to R/A.

Ugh · Feb 09, 2010, 06:29 PM // 18:29

How about we delete HA and call it a day? All it brings us are gimmicks and elitism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Shattering Assault at 4 energy....... tends to make 3 pips more than sufficient.

Also, explain what's bad about nerfing melee rangers to oblivion

33% IAS + 75% block is (still) ridiculously strong for a melee character

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

Please, please tell me you're not that dense.

You guys are good at reading.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Alright Amy Awien, to shut you up, here are the test results:

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Well, I made a little test myself

I'm not saying either of you are lying, but a test needs proof to be convincing.

The Drunkard · Feb 09, 2010, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

For some reason, it didn't stick yo my bar.

Right, so can I assume you're theorycrafting then? Please stop because it's not contributing to the discussion at all and is just turning it into a flamefest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

They obviously don't need it and from this we may conclude that they're not that starved for energy.

I don't see many R/A's in GvG btw.

Because the escape nerf flushed them out. They still are a problem though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Fine, lets go empirical
Well, I made a little test myself, with this R/A and some random assassin build, using the haphzard collection of assasin skill I have available atm - and without PvE skills . The Sin build never ran out of energy (kept a full bar actually) and easily managed around 100 dps. The ranger did run out of energy (I admittedly did not have zealous daggers) after a while and managed like 50-60dps

I don't see R/A outclassing A/x yet, I have the empirical evidence to show you're mistaken.

Post the builds you used please, until then I refuse to believe any tests that you've ran.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Asking for an ENTIRE ATT LINE NERF because of 1 build ( yeah or whatever ) is stupid.

I concur. However, this suggestion is to stop ranger melee builds from spaming skills on recharge without any punishment, not to destroy the ranger's primary attribute. Please read the thread.

Amy Awien · Feb 09, 2010, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Why would you use random skills? It sure isn't hard to run out of energy when all of your skills have 12-15 second recharges, it sure is easy to run out of energy when your attack skills are on 1-4 second recharges.

You're right and to be honest, they weren't completely random, I picked them for their short recharge time so that there would be a skill in the chain available at any time, I just don't have that many assassin skills unlocked:

Jagged Strike & Golden Lotus Strike as Lead Attacks (GLS returns E)
Fox Fangs as off-hand
Death Blossom as dual attack

Way of the Assassin
Critical Eye

Conjure Lightning

I'm sure it's a poor build that can be improved, but I was pressed for time and wouldn't have made it had I jumped around to buy the skills for one of the PvX RA builds. A constantly full E-bar implies there's too much E-management which probably compromised damage and utility. When I have time I'll try out one of the A/x's from PvX.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

what mistake? and don't take my goddamn quote out of context then pretend you have a solid point. twit.

I am not the one taking text out of context. Read back please, here it may help, if I just put things together

Me: "Removing expertise would make rangers impossible, 3 pips is insufficient ..."

Bobby2, while quoting my statement about removing expertise: "Shattering Assault at 4 energy....... tends to make 3 pips more than sufficient"

Me, referring back to my quoted statement about removing expertise: "It wouldn't be 4 E if expertise didn't apply to it."

You: "Please, please tell me you're not that dense"

Me, thinking it might help if I explain the context: "Did I did not start that quoted section with "Removing expertise would ..."?" Without expertise aplying to it, Shattering Assault would not be 4 E and 3 pips would be insufficient.